Hello,
I’d like to suggest the idea of enabling answer using the characters directly or the pinyin without tones. I find that i’m spending a lot of time correcting minor mistakes on tones, hence a lot of time doing my reviews, while memorizing the correct tone number is less crucial to me than meaning, typing (on pinyin keyboard) and producing the prononciation in my head.
That could be an option in the settings.
Does anyone would be interested in that option too ?
Best
Not me. Tones aren’t some external extra thing that’s added TO the pronunciation, they ARE the pronunciation. Wrong tone = wrong pronunciation (and often wrong word). Pinyin without the tone isn’t pinyin - i is not ì or í, just like x is not s etc. Typing one extra number (“shi” vs “shi4”) takes almost no extra time, so not sure what’s to be gained from only testing two thirds of the pronunciation.
From all my reading and personal experience, tones are just as important as the consonants and vowels - there’s a study somewhere that shows tones are often more important that the vowels in a word for understanding (I can’t find in 5 second google but if you search you can find it). Would you accept yourself typing in 是 as only sh_4 and thinking "I know it, I just don’t remember the final”? If you wouldn’t accept that, then I don’t see why you’d accept leaving off the tone number as “ok” since it’s just as important. You can absolutely get by with incorrect tones sometimes - just like in English if you heard “I’m tired I’m going to bid”, what does “bid” mean? It’s obviously “bed” with the wrong vowel - so technically you can get by in English when messing up the vowels … doesn’t mean I’d recommend it or practise that.
(Edit: Found the study - Link to PDF - “The most interesting result is that identifying the tone of a syllable is at least as important as identifying the vowels in the syllable”)
Thanks for the imput !
Let me take an example that just happened to me :
I get tested on the character 兔 :
That’s a lot of added time considering that i know how to use 兔子 fluently in a conversation, i know my tone is far from perfect but i’m getting understood and being able to pursue conversations not only is the ultimate goal, it’s the ultimate learning tool.
That’s tiny bits of time adding over time that i’d prefer allocating to something else.
Indeed tones are crucial, i’m aware of that, but i don’t think learning tone numbers is the best way to master them in the end. It doesn’t have the efficiency of : listening them in a convo with natives / tv shows - using them in conversations and getting corrected.
The phrases i’m not completely destroying while expressing myself are mostly the ones i’ve learned by shadowing and by being corrected.
You can also know the tones while speaking the word without knowing exactly each number, like when people spit technical terms like 安卓草系统, we barely think of the tones and yet we can get it right if we used it many times.
I’ve found forcing myself to learn tones immensly helpful. I can’t speak that well, but I would have totally skipped tones earlier on if I could have. But I’ve found it really important to have the ‘academic’ tone knowledge the more I study.
I do make this kind of mistake ALOT though and my work around was to actively look at increasing my typing speed and improving my muscle memory for the keyboard shortcuts (CTRL + B > CTRL + Z). I’ve stopped using my phone for reviews entirely now, since I can get reviews done in half the time on desktop vs phone.
I’m just going to have to quote @kaysik on this:
It’s worth remembering that even native Mandarin speakers spend years refining their tone usage, starting in preschool and continuing through formal education, because tones are fundamental to meaning in Chinese, not just an extra feature. While tones might feel arbitrary if you’re only using simple, predictable sentence structures, Chinese is highly flexible. Sentence patterns and expressions vary widely across regions, and tones help you interpret meaning accurately in those less predictable contexts. [comprenders.com] [3isolution.org]
You’re right that people can often get by without perfect tones in casual conversation. Many speakers from non-Mandarin regions do this too. But as topics get more complex, tones become part of the word itself, and mastering them really does take your language skills much further. [traverse.link]
What you’re describing, finding tone marks hard to use but doing better through listening and mimicking, is actually very common. Research shows that some learners (and even people from tonal-language backgrounds) struggle with tone literacy, meaning reading tone marks and producing them accurately, while oral practice tends to be more effective for acquisition. In fact, studies suggest that perceptual and oral training, listening and repeating, outperform tone mark drills for most learners. [frontiersin.org], [cambridge.org] [journals.sagepub.com]
So if you’re already good at recognizing tones by ear, oral learning is the way to go. If mimicking feels hard or isn’t working sometimes, adding structured tone drills from books can help. Even something simple like reading a new word aloud several times when you first learn it can build muscle memory over time. [benjamins.com]
To actually respond to your original post, given that, even though this website does have audio incorporated with the words, having the tones is still a really useful guide, especially for people who don’t come from a tonal-language background or who may not have as many opportunities to converse with others due to time, environment, etc.
Thank you all for your detailed answers !
Of course i’m not neglecting tones in my learning journey and I understand their importance.
Lately (and at the time I wrote the poste) I’m constantly having +250 pendings review on HH, so once I manage to free some time to study Chinese I would love to spend less time on HH and more on my audio flashcards, hence my reflexion.
I also realize that this eternal grinding curse toward fluency, which I cast upon myself, is quite comically a cultural experience itself of the Chinese way of studying and working toward goals too.
学无止境..
Best,